Church Leaders Barry Thomas and Brandon Brunson Share Crucible’s Impact on Church Conflict Resolution

Barry Thomas and Brandon Brunson, leaders at Golf Course Rd Church in Midland, TX are interviewed by Joy Dunning about the impact of Crucible on moving a church in crisis to a church community rebuilding. They share the impact of their grace experience on their lives and their leadership through one of the darkest times of the church they both loved. Their authentic leadership turned the tide and has the church growing again.

Here are some of the topics we cover in our podcast episodes:

Radical honesty and grace
Spiritual growth
Discipleship
Mentorship
Personal development
Life transformation
Christian men's ministry
Christian women's ministry
Faith-based retreat
Discover our other resources:

Our Website: https://thecrucibleproject.org/
Our Blog: https://thecrucibleproject.org/blog/
Christian Men's Retreats: https://thecrucibleproject.org/crucible-weekend-for-men/
Christian Women's Retreats: https://thecrucibleproject.org/crucible-weekend-for-women/

And I just carried a lot of shame in my life and been point to why. Didn't know why, but just knew it was there and started feeling the effects of it and how it was impacting my life and how it was impacting the people around me. And I was just done. I was ready

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to do something about it. And it went on this weekend and it gave me something to do about it. The experiential nature of the weekend gave me something to do about that shame and it was freeing and liberating. It was hard, but it was really good.

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Welcome to the Crucible Project Podcast. The Crucible Project is a nonprofit organization committed to creating a world of men and women who live with integrity, grace and courage, helping them to fulfill their God-given purpose.

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This podcast will discuss important and sometimes difficult topics while delivering practical life applications with men and women who are currently practicing this work. We are igniting Christlike change in men and women through experiences of radical honesty

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and grace. Welcome back to the Crucible Podcast. I'm your host Joy Dunning and I'm here today with two awesome guys. We have Brandon Brunson and Barry Thomas. Brandon, how are you doing today? Great to join you here on the podcast.

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Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks Barry. How are you doing? Yeah, doing very well and life is good. Awesome. Well, we are talking today about the impact that your crucible journeys have had on your life right now. You are both elders at your church. From what I understand, you've

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been elders together for about four and a half years. So before we jump into life as an elder and crucible, I'd love to hear a brief snapshot from each of you about your crucible journey, maybe when you started and what that has looked like for you.

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Sure. Yes. So I went on an initial weekend in August of 2005. I think it was the seventh weekend for this ministry and this men's work and then wasn't involved with crucible for about a year and a half or two. And then I had moved away, moved away to Texas and then

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started talking to the leaders of the crucible project about how to get this started in Texas. It was had a men's weekend, their first weekend in 2009. And it was the first weekend that was ever done outside of Chicago. And since that time, it has been done multiple times

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in Texas, but then it spread really across the country and across the world. So it's been fun to watch that grow. Yeah, you were a big part of helping it get to Midland, Texas, right? Yeah. So it was, it was fun to be part of that. Well, thank you for the work that

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you did with that. And Brandon, how about you? My was a director's altar Barry. I was at golf course road. A life group leader Barry was on staff and had a group of us who were life group leader coaches and encouraged me and some other men to go on this weekend.

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I went for absolutely the wrong reason. Like I went because I thought this is going to be really cool to start something I knew a little bit about what Barry wanted to do. And I wanted to be a pioneer. I wanted to jump in and be a part of that. And God got

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a hold of me while I was on the weekend and did some work in me. Even though I think I went initially for maybe the wrong reason, but God got a hold of me, did some work. I flew up to Chicago to do the weekend at that point. That's what the weekends were. But I

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think seven of us went that last time prior to the retreat that Barry talks about in 2009. And here we are in 2023, still doing the work. So it's been a, it's done a lot for me. It did a lot for me years ago as a husband and a dad. And it's done a lot for my leadership

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in the intervening years. Enjoyed I didn't mention this. One of the reasons I wanted to get it started in Texas is when I went in August of 2005, it was the most transformational thing, most powerful

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experience I'd ever had in my life. And wanted other people to experience that. Yeah. So tell me about that transformation. What was it about this weekend? You know, you were on staff at a church at the time, Barry, and there's a lot of great organizations

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out there with powerful weekend experiences, and I'm sure you've been on different retreats and not to downplay any of those. But what was it about your time with crucible that makes you look back and say it was the single most transformational experience?

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So a big part of it was God's timing. I had been doing some inner work looking at what was going on under the hood in my life for the first time ever. And so there was a lot of prep work that had been going on in my heart. And then this weekend helped me do

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something about it. And then so specifically in my life, a lot of it had to do around shame. And I just carried a lot of shame in my life and couldn't point to why. Didn't know why, but just knew it was there and started feeling the effects of it and how it was impacting

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my life and how it was impacting the people around me. And I was just done. I was ready to do something about it. And it went on this weekend and it gave me something to do about it. The experiential nature of the weekend gave me something to do about that shame. And

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it was freeing and liberating. It was hard, but it was really good. Well, let's fast forward just a little bit here. You guys have been, like I mentioned before, you've been others at your church for about

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four and a half years. And from what I understand, when you started, the church was in a bit of how you describe it as like a crisis, right? So can you tell us without going into the details of what the crisis was, what was that

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like for you being men who went through crucible and, you know, have experience, radical honesty, radical grace, stepping into a situation where there was hurt, there was crisis going on. I vividly remember just before I became an elder.

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So there just been some turmoil, some things going on with personnel. We had a lot of people who had left and there was a point where I decided I'll leave them too. I'm going to walk up and I'm going to get out of this place and go somewhere else and

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try this a different way. But two things happened for me. Number one, I realized I had been at that church most of my life and I couldn't walk out on most people. So for me, part of the crucible thing, we talk about being authentic and living lives

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of integrity. Something struck a chord for me. I would be out of integrity with myself if I walked out. I want to be a part of helping this place become healthy again. And so I determined that I was going to stay and be supportive, whatever that meant.

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At that time, I had no idea that that would mean being an elder. And so when I was asked to be an elder, there was some fear that I expressed to my wife and felt myself about, do I really want to do this?

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Because I know how difficult this might potentially be. But I felt that it was God's calling at that time. And so I went through the process and not saying yes or no initially, but saying, I'm going to go through this and listen to God and find out what's here.

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And by the end of the process, went through and was affirmed and felt like that was God's call. And Barry was going through it at the same time. So I knew there would be another man who understood some other principles that we thought we could

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bring to the table. And another elder who sat around that table already. So it felt like there would be some synergy in that this would be a great place for us to really step in and help our church with the leadership that we had and the knowledge

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and this idea of transformation and trying to bring that idea to people who were, at many times, it felt like to me being really petty about things. And I wanted to bring a different level of authenticity and accountability.

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So yes, I was somebody who was sitting in the pew at the time. I wasn't on staff and had been unstapped previously at this church, but wasn't on staff. And so sitting back and watching the conflict, there was just a lot of unhealthy dynamics.

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And our senior minister made mistakes, our elders made mistakes. We had members that made mistakes. We had staff members that made mistakes in how they handled the conflict. I mean, we had people that were standing up in class and yelling up leaders in the glass.

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And we had somebody literally come up and pick it with a pick of sign at our church or about the church leader. I mean, just a lot of unhealthy dynamics and leading out of authenticity is Brandon's

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talking about it. I felt like we've been able to come in and help address the dynamics. We're not looking at who's right and wrong and what the results were. It's like, okay, I understand that there's disagreement here.

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But you got to handle it in healthy ways. And so really have pushed for that and still have a ways to go, but really focused on that. The other thing, there was a lack of trust in the leadership. And so one of the big things that we did as elders said, we've got to build trust with

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our members. And so just communicating openly and honestly, our church had more problems than a run over dog. And so to just acknowledge that, to say, hey, this is an issue. Here's what we're thinking about it.

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We started setting a monthly church family updates and said, okay, here's what's going on. Here's what we're thinking. And just trying to communicate as authentically and openly as we could to help build trust

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back in the leadership. And I felt like all of those are principles that we learned through a resource project. Yeah. So leading with accountability, leading with authenticity and transparency, those can

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be really scary things. I'm curious how that was received by the congregation, because it can be easy to say as a church leadership, this is what we value. This is what we're all about and what we want to do.

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But sometimes seeing it play out doesn't always go the way that you expect it to. So how was it for you and your church? So there were mixed reactions. We had people leave because of some of the decisions we made.

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And we knew that that was going to be the case. One of the decisions we made is to remove the senior minister out of his position. We knew that we were going to lose some people over that. And we did.

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And I think another thing to joy is we had people that said, hey, we're behind you. We're behind you. And then six minutes later, they would end up leaving too. And it's like, hey, we're trying to rebuild here.

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And you said you wanted to help rebuild this place. And so just learning not to react to that, that our security was not in that. We weren't up for a popularity contest. We're leading in a direction we want all of you to go.

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And we hope you go with us. It's been disappointing that there are some people who have chosen not to, but we're not making decisions based off of who's going to stay and who's going to leave. Yeah.

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And I would say agreed. I would have conversations with people who would say, I'm not sure I trust you guys. And the younger ones, I really felt disappointed when I heard those things because I grew up

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respecting church elders. And when a church elder said or did something, it was almost a question about where their heart was and what they wanted for the church. And some of the younger folks, I just didn't catch that from.

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So very dry. It took time. It took that open and authentic communication. It took us having one on one conversations with those people in addition to that communication that was churchwide so that they could hear our hearts and hear us talk about, we're

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doing this for the good of the kingdom and a golf course road here. And we did. Very dry. We made some unpopular decisions. But for instance, that one about the senior minister, we're going to lose people if we

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dismiss them. We're going to lose people if we remain status quo. So prayerfully consider with our group, what's the way God wants us to go and then communicate that corporately and communicate it individually?

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And I think once we started having those kinds of authentic conversations, to me, that's when the tide started to turn. People could see that up front. They felt it from us one on one. And I think that's what turned the tide.

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Yeah. An old cowboy saying is whenever you dig yourself in a hole, the first thing you got to do is stop digging. And so that's what we tried to do is okay, healthy conflict dynamics and building trust

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is how we're going to stop the digging and start filling the hole back in. Yeah, that's great. And you know, I got to tell you, I'm not really privy to a lot of cowboy wisdom where I'm at. So I just appreciate that.

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That was for free, not charging money for that. Well, thank you. So it sounds like what you have gone through with church leadership, the principles from crucible have really helped guide you along the way.

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You know, some of the things that the crucible project stands on is, you know, integrity and courage and grace, especially looking at like that council in the heart of a man is like deep water. And it sounds like you have had to surround yourself with other elders in your church

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to really help tap into that deep reserve of wisdom. And through that, you've had to exercise that courage, exercise that integrity. That's really powerful. We have a saying in crucible about when you are willing to be radically honest, you can

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receive radical grace. So that radical honesty and radical grace. I'm curious if either of you can share, you know, we talked about some of the hardship of making those hard decisions than how that's received.

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But do you have any stories of receiving some of that radical grace and return for that honesty that you brought? One of the things that we did, because, you know, I'd say that there were some mistakes

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made from different parts of our church. And one of them was the eldership itself. The way churches of Christ work is there's no governing denomination. Each congregation is self-governing and the elders are the overseers of each congregation.

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And so the buck stops with the elders and there was conflict in that elder room when they met. There was conflict with them that was unresolved and it played out. And so one of the things that we did is we started every meeting off and we still do.

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We're going to check in with each other before we start addressing issues. We're going to address each other first. How are you coming to the table tonight in this circle, in this meeting? And there have been people who are carrying big burdens with their families or their work,

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things outside. And we get that out all on the table first. And then that's where their grace comes in. It's like, oh, you know, he's not having a good day or he's not having a good week. And we just keep that in mind.

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Listen and hold each other and give each other grace during those times. We are also clear with each other. You know, is there any conflict that needs to be resolved in this group before we move on?

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And if so, we take care of it right now. It sounds good in a podcast to say that we haven't been vigilant about that all the time, but people know that that that's the sentiment and that's what needs to happen.

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If we're not in harmony in that room, as the leaders go, so goes to the church. And so it starts in that room. So there's grace that starts among us. And corporately, Joy, I will say this, I felt a lot of grace.

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And I think, you know, we go back to talking about that open on this communication corporately and individually. I've experienced a great deal of grace from our people when I'm honest and tell them what's

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going on. For instance, we just added four new elders and we went through a process and people would ask me, okay, so what do you think? And I said, listen, we've nominated four great men and I appreciate and love them all.

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And I don't know what's going to happen when they walk in the room with the rest of it. We could have the four best men on the face of the planet and the dynamic is going to change a little bit. I said, I'm just, I'm checking into you with some fear about that.

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And I think being honest in that conversation, people took that and it's like, oh, you know, I hadn't thought of that. And so it's kind of an unspoken thing. But once you bring that into the light and people hear you and your honest heart, they

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understand that. And one of the most timely things I get is when people come up to me and say, hey, we appreciate what you guys are doing and we're praying for you. And so I feel in that moment, I do feel a little bit of grace there as I know there's

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some things that happen. And when they say things like that, I believe, okay, they're understanding what's going on. They're extending the grace. And we've built even more of that foundation that Barry talked about earlier of trust.

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Well, that's great. Crucible. A lot of what we do on our weekend experiences is focused on your own personal story and some of the things that we've each gone through in our life and how that's impacting the way

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that we're showing up now. So it is very individual focused, but it sounds like the work that you both did as individuals has had a broader impact with your larger group of elders. So I'm curious just what you would say, you know, let's say someone's listening who's

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considering going on a weekend and wondering what would this do for me, maybe, you know, in their personal life and their business life, even in the way that they show up at their church. I'm just curious if you have anything that you would want to say to that type of listener.

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So the best gift that I can give my family, the best gift I can give the people that I lead is a healthier me. And if I'm not aware of how I lead out from a shadowy place, from blind spots, if you will,

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we all have blind spots. And if I'm leading from some of those blind spots or from some per place that I've had and that carry with me, it's going to control my behaviors and the decisions I make. So for example, I talked about shame and dealing with shame.

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If I had not dealt with that as a leader, I would have continued to carry that and it would have affected the voices from shame that you're bad. You're not good enough. You know, those kinds of things would be playing in the background and it would affect the decisions

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that I make. And so the best gift I can give the people that I lead is to be aware of that going on in the background and then make choices, whether I believe those voices or believe what's true about me.

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And then the people around me are blessed from that work that I do. That's absolutely true and kind of a dovetail for me. When I went, what struck me was this idea of purpose, passion and power. Years ago, the younger dad doing all the right things and going to church and checking the

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boxes, but there was something about it that wasn't all that fulfilling. And so another thing about me is I always felt like I was just on the outside. Like, I couldn't quite be a part of that group.

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I wasn't quite good enough. My voice didn't really matter as much. And so this idea of purpose, passion and power and stepping into those things and as very suggest, what's true about me and not listen to the negative voices that say, you don't

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belong there, you're not good enough there. But what was true about me made all the difference in the world for me. And then I can take that and bring it to my family, bring it to church, bring it to work,

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bring it to any of the communities that I'm in and feel like and not in an area that way. But okay, I do belong. And what I have to say matters. I had a great mentor of mine in this work. I got named Judson Boulding.

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We were doing an online group and I expressed that and he was just flattery-assed like, wow, what would we listen to you? Your voice does matter. And it made a difference. Like, again, I was feeling that I don't belong here.

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And for somebody to affirm, yes, you do made all the difference and it spins me back to that idea of the purpose, passion and the power. Yeah. Well, and then you're using that voice now in your church leadership, navigating through

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crisis situations, working on bringing that grace and that radical honesty and clear communication. Wow, what a powerful way to use the voice that God has given you. So Barry, Brandon, thank you so much for your time today and for the work that you do with

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your church, the work that you do with Crucible. We'll let you go to either of you have anything that you want to share. One of the best books i read on church leadership is spiritually healthy church by peter zero and one of the things that he says is in mention earlier but the church will never be healthier than the leadership of that church and i totally believe that and so.

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For church leaders who are listening to this you owe it to yourself but you owe it even to the people that you lead to develop and grow. And one of the things that i love about the work that the crucible project does.

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The most fruitful ministry i've ever been a part of and what it does is it compliments the work that churches do very well churches do well with people who are following the lord and being part of their faith community serving the lord.

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And then there's a book called the critical journey that it's some that talks about at some point in our faith journey we hit a wall and in this wall is where our will meets god's will and we get to this dark night of the soul type of moment.

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And a lot of churches don't know how to deal with people that are at that place they typically are not safe places. To deal with people who are at the wall and the crystal project is one of those places it's one of those places to help people deal with that dark night of the soul and then they can live in their local congregation healthier and in a better place.

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I love the work that the crystal project does and how it compliments. Work churches to and i would say also with the church leaders and ministers and we have others churches have people in positions of leadership but even outside of the name leaders there are leaders.

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The church lay people are people who serve by the scenes however they do that what i tell people who want to go on a weekend or do. Is we need strong men and women. taking this work back into the church.

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So it's no secret that the church across the country is in trouble. It's not just ours or yours. You can look at the numbers and every church is in trouble. It's just in decline. And I firmly believe that the more men and women

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they go through these weekend. And then I always encourage them at the end of the weekend, go back. If you're in a church and you're not involved, get involved. If you're not involved in the church, find a place.

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Because we need men and women taking these principles and stepping back in. And I think that's one of the things that maybe one of the only hopes we have of turning church around is to be authentic and live with this purpose, passion, power, and bring that to our churches.

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Because our communities need a strong church. Some of them don't know they need it, but they need it. And they're looking for something. And the more we can bring from the crucible project, I think, into that church, it would be more attractive to people to step in.

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Absolutely. Yeah, that goes right along with crucible's mission of igniting Christlike change in men and women. And we can do that on the weekend. We can have those experiences, but it can't die there.

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It has to go on and wear better to bring that Christlike change than to the body of Christ. So, amen. Thank you both for your thoughts. Thank you for the leadership that you bring to your communities.

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I honor you both in the work that you do, and I appreciate your time. Thank you, Joy. Yeah, thank you for the time.

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The Crucible Project Podcast

Church Leaders Barry Thomas and Brandon Brunson Share Crucible’s Impact on Church Conflict Resolution

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