Part 1-Todd Palmer Shares Impact of Crucible to His Employees, Customers and Family

Jay Mountjoy interviews business leader and entrepreneur Todd Palmer about how his anger was coming out sideways at his employees, his customers and even at home at his family.  The Crucible Men’s Weekend provided him an experience that, although his wounds are unique, he is not alone in the challenges of life.  He discovered most of the blocks in his life that he was blaming others of were based in his own fear of failure.  He found a community in a 2 year transformational group that impacted his relationships with customers, employees and his family members.

 Here are some of the topics we cover in our podcast episodes:

Radical honesty and grace
Spiritual growth
Discipleship
Mentorship
Personal development
Life transformation
Christian men's ministry
Christian women's ministry
Faith-based retreat
Discover our other resources:

Our Website: https://thecrucibleproject.org/
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Transcript

When we step into that vulnerability and as a leader, whether that's leading family or business or community, that when we step into that vulnerability first, that it becomes more safe for others to do it too.

Welcome to the Crucible Project podcast. The Crucible Project is a nonprofit organization committed to creating a world of men and women who live with integrity, grace, and courage, helping them to fulfill their God-given purpose. This podcast will discuss important and sometimes difficult topics while delivering practical life applications with men and women who are currently practicing this work. We are igniting Christlike change in men and women through experiences of radical honesty and grace.

Hello everybody. Welcome to the Crucible podcast. This is one of your crucible hosts, Jay Mount Joy. I am sitting across on a video screen and have the pleasure of speaking with Todd Palmer. Todd, go ahead and say hi to everybody.

Hi, I'm Todd Palmer. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

It is a pleasure to speak with you as I'm really getting just some nostalgia and talking with you about your life before, during, after the Crucible weekend and weekends. It sounds like, I didn't know you had done that. But the nostalgia for me comes back to where our journeys intersected in the groups where yeah, you were just coming out of your weekend. I was just learning and certified and apprenticing and leading groups. So it really is a pleasure to get to see you again as we go through this.

Yeah. Likewise, you and the other leaders of that group were certainly an integral part of my journey, starting out and continuing.

Yeah. Well, let's jump into that journey.

Oh, thank you. Yeah. I am not good at accepting thanks or gratitude. Blessing in general. It is a challenge for me. So take a second for myself and breathe in. You are very welcome. It has been a blessing to me as well. So let's jump in on your journey.

So my initial weekend was in May of 2018. So early in '18. A close friend and mentor of mine who had participated in the weekend a couple of years prior suggested that I look at a couple of personal development things for the year of 2018. And he suggested two, and The Crucible Project was one of those. I remember reaching out to him and saying, "Hey, is two weeks in between these two too close?" And he said, "Yes, you need to give yourself some time to process. You're like trying to stuff in all the personal development in a two-week time frame." We spaced them out a couple of months, but that was really the beginning of a big personal development journey for me.

Yeah. So I am curious about if we think of Todd of May of 2018. I'm guessing he's the same man, but in many ways he's showing up as a different man, how were you showing up in the world, and you're getting feedback to maybe do some personal development, but how are you feeling? Like I should probably do this or like, I definitely need to do this. Yeah. What's going on for Todd then?

Yeah, I think at that time, and really it's just kind of who I am, my base emotion is anger. And that was coming out sideways on the folks that work for me, sometimes our customers, sometimes my family, and really just learning about myself and what things lead to that coming on board. And the Crucible project certainly has been part that's helped me see that and learn about that over time.

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I think that probably resonates for my journey. The story would be the majority of men that anger can come online. And I love the way you say it comes out sideways. The illustration that was given to me is the emotions that maybe are not okay for us to experience are like a big beach ball and we push it down, and we try and push it down. And the more we push it down, the more it wants to come out. And as we're pushing it down, when it comes out yeah, it comes out often out of control and always in kind of a sideways way, I think is a good way to say it. And I think there's also this part of anger is not a bad thing. And so as we get into the weekend, I am interested as how that showed up. But yeah. Is there anything else that a person is telling you to do something? But my story would be as a leader and as a business owner and as a man that carries a lot of my story would be power and anger. What was it about that invitation that actually had you acting on it?

Yeah. So I think for me, a big part of that acting on that invitation is the trust and confidence I have in this man that is a close friend and mentor in my life, as well as a number of other men in my life that had embarked on the journey of the initial weekend through the Crucible Project. And so I just had a lot of confidence in the man that initiated the conversation and conversations with other men that are in my life that had the experience and talked about the growth that they had personally and really went into the weekend excited about what it could bring in my life based on the experience of these other men that had shared with me some of their journey and what they learned about themselves.

Man yeah, that's powerful. As we kind of emphasize coming out of the COVID and the Lockdown years to reinvigorate, I think just some we're just starting to kind of get back some of the weekends to the levels we were at before. But it has been slower in recovery. It has not just popped right back up. And I think a lot of that does come down to those personal invitations, like the men who invited you, who you trusted that spoke into your life, that my story is sounds like they really did. Bless you.

So going into the weekend, I heard you say you're excited for this personal growth journey and we don't want to give away too much of what happens on the weekend because it's an experiential weekend and so you need to experience it. But I am curious on the Friday night welcoming and the Friday night experiences, are you still excited as you go through? Yeah. You step into uncomfortableness. I didn't know what to expect. I remember at the beginning of Friday night thinking back in my head, I just have a lot of trust and confidence of the men that have gone before me. Wow. And know that God really brought me to this weekend for a reason. And these men were part of God's plan to bring me to this weekend and just walked into that weekend with an open mind and an open heart to see and experience what would happen over the course of two days, two and a half days.

Yeah. I want to honor that so much that you are showing up open to these experiences and just highlight again how powerful that is that you trusted those relationships so much that even as things as you're getting the welcome you're getting. And we openly admit that the weekend is designed to challenge men. That as those challenges start, you're still like, yeah, these men tell me this is going to grow me. I'm hearing that you were still stepping into that. It is interesting. I'm just reflecting on my own experience. 

That was not my journey. My journey was resistance and skepticism, and yeah, that shows up in other places in my life also.

So as you again don't give away, we can't give away. Don't want to. To rob men of their experience on the weekend. What day and what part of the day did you find was most impactful for you and how did it land? How did it shift or grow you?

Saturday afternoon and evening were a big impact to me. Understanding through that experience that in a lot of ways just really understanding that I'm not alone, that I'm not unique, while my wounds are unique, that we all have them. And I think it was easy for me prior to my initial weekend to think that some of the challenges I have in life are so unique and others don't have them and they're not dealing with the same things. And understanding that some of my blocks still come from a fear of failure.Um, and seeing, talking, experiencing other men talk about the same types of things and really realizing that there's some community in that and breaks down some of, you know, feeling like you're alone. 

Yeah.

And so I just want to reflect back. It does sound like the growing part for you was sharing some of that pain and finding in that community and accepting and connecting with others. Just the community, the connection. You're not alone. 

Yeah.

We've talked a little bit about this. Since my initial weekend, there's been four other weekends I've participated in and ten weekends that I've staffed. And really what I see in that is that it's a really safe place to be. Yeah. Without judgment, I would say. There's just not that many places in life that I find that safety and lack of judgment that I find in the community. With the Crucible project. 

Yeah.

It makes for bad audio, but I raise my hand and I second that. There is something so impactful for me in being in that environment. It helps me to grow, to see other men grow. It really requires that I do the work to help other men do the work. Have you found that same thing on the staffing part? Absolutely. Yeah. I really find it as a joy to staff half. It's work, it's exhausting. It's worth every minute of it. 

Yeah.

Okay, so let's wind back a little bit, because we will get into staffing, the benefits of staffing, but learning you're not alone. There was something that came up for me there that I think is an important point where I'm curious if you had ever heard before anywhere in the world, someone say, tod you're not alone. Maybe even like a sermon, like you had heard that or come across that message somewhere in the world before. Certainly have heard that before. Hadn't really experienced that before. That is a great way to say it. 

Right.

What is different about hearing it in a pew on Sunday or on a podcast or a movie or being on this weekend? Yeah. Is there any way that you could speak to that you experienced that you were not alone? Yeah. Is there any way you could help people who might be wondering about going to weekend? Like, all right, well, he learned he's not alone. And I'm hearing that. But the experience of that, what would you say to a man who's listening about experiencing versus hearing? 

Yeah.

So experiencing that for me, it's seeing hearing talking with other men about the challenges they have in life and seeing that there's some similarities to those in my life, those that were different, understanding that even though those challenges are different than mine. They're similar in the way of where they not the events that occurred that related to those, but that we all have these challenges and that we all have some messages in the back of our head that we carry from our previous experiences and that we learn that those things become more norm. Understanding that what I've experienced is really everybody has that stuff in their life. Understanding that you're not alone in having this stuff in your life really helped me feel like I wasn't an outcast, that I wasn't unique in having stuff. While the stuff may be different, we all carry some of that burden. 

Yeah.

There was a key word you use there, like, the understanding. Right. Like, I've heard things and I understand them, or experienced and I understand them. And it sounds like it's just a totally different level of understanding in that weekend. 

Yeah.

Okay, so in the weekend, you are understanding something, and I am interested just instantly equate to growth for you, or is there some other pieces that really were important in the growth that sounded like you were looking for? Yeah, certainly. I'd say that the weekend was the first step, and the first step was kind of realizing where that growth were, some of those blocks where some of that growth needed to occur, and that the real growth comes from the continued work in being starting in that group. Shortly after my weekend, where you and two other men led with a group of I don't remember, 1618 other men. That's a lot. I don't remember. Seems like that was 15 or 16 weeks, maybe it was twelve. But it was in that range of meeting weekly with other men and working through and understanding that I felt was really important to continue the growth out of the weekend. And so some things became obvious to me on the weekend, and then for me to realize the growth, it required continued growth. And that started in that group that you were part of leading and then continued in men's groups after that. So from that initial group that you and the other two gentlemen led that went to a men's group that met weekly for me, I don't remember exactly how long I was in that group.

That led to moving into a two year group, which is part of the A avenue that's available to men, to initiated men that led to some more intensive groups over two year period and experiencing the second level weekends. Yeah, absolutely.

And I found the same thing. So to kind of, kind of wrap up the weekend portion and move into your experience with groups, I had a profound emotional through all my skepticism, a profound emotional shift that I'm wondering, like, okay, well, how am I going to feel Wednesday or next Monday? Right. As I'm coming back from the weekend, I was like, oh my, all my heavens and stars, something to that effect. This really shifted things in me. And so, yeah, how was that experience for you? How was that kind of initial coming out of the weekend experience?

Yeah, I remember coming home on Sunday night and having a really rich conversation with my wife about what I learned about myself and found that most all of those things she already knew about me. Yeah end. But really it started a journey of great conversations with my wife. At that time, our son was a teenager, and it was a challenging period of time in his life and our parenting, and just super grateful for the wisdom and growth that came in that time frame and how I led, how it allowed me to show up and lead with my family in a much more positive way.

Look at today and say, if I step back today my son's 21, so he was what, 17, 1617 in that time frame. I really give a lot of credit to the growth in this journey, to the relationship that I have with him and my wife and my daughters. And so really, it just opened my eyes to some different thinking and a different way to approach conversations, asking more questions and learning to understand versus jumping to conclusions and trying to solve. And I've found those tools, some of those very kind of early tools that came from the weekend and into those first groups have changed my communication style with my family, with my friends, with the team that I lead in the business that I lead. Yeah changed your communication style. I'm really curious about kind of diving into that. If you're willing to. How was Todd before the weekend communicating, or how would you characterize know? I would say.

Less listening and more reactive, and that's where that anger would show up. And and you know what? I think one of the biggest things that I've learned is that asking questions, obtaining data, having questions, and decisions that are that are really data based and fact based allow the conversations to not bring emotion to them. It's like, whether that's at home or whether that's in my business life or in my community, I find that if I can show up and ask questions, have data, and say, okay, so this is what I heard. Am I understanding that correctly? And then it allows for a conversation to be much different than some of the reactiveness that I had. And I certainly haven't perfected that I'm better. I'm not perfect. I'm better. I know that the folks in my life are appreciative of me being better and also accept that I'm not perfect in that yeah, with your son in particular. But it sounds like your family in general, that sort of pattern has my guess that would be one piece of all the things you've picked up and all the growth you've done. But that's a really impactful one for the family world It is. And it is in the business world, too. 

We've embarked on, over the last period of time defining systems and process. And SOP we believe that that's foundation for training. And when folks in the business are kind of outside of process, the questions can be, so did you follow the process? Yeah. No, I didn't follow the process. What was the outcome from not following the process? And it becomes leading to questions and understanding versus saying, hey, you screwed this up. Yeah. That definition, that works well at home, that works well in business, it works well with others in the community as well. And it's just a really kind of gracious way to have a conversation that doesn't invite a bunch of emotion to it. It's just conversational. Yeah. And as I hear you say that, the way that it would land for me is it doesn't bring up shame. And so emotions, my judgment would be not a bad thing to have in there, but for me, it would be like, oh, if someone doesn't come at me like, you screwed up, I go straight to shame. And then I have my defense mechanisms, which tend to be emotional, which right now, suddenly, we're on a battlefield that is ugly and yeah, probably doesn't lead to my growth. And that graciousness is like, hey, did you follow this? What are the outcomes, what are the choices that you made? Allows me I like your word gracious, and it allows me space to grow on my own while also having outcomes. Right. Like, owning up to the outcomes and the consequences. I like that a lot.

So coming right out, I'm wondering for you, is there an emotional shift or an emotional state that you find yourself in as you come out of that initial weekend and you're talking with your wife. I think that for me, it's really easy for me to stuff my emotions out of that weekend. I could find that I could feel my emotions. And I think that initial conversation that Sunday night with my wife was just kind of real and raw, and I felt comfortable sharing with her things that things about me that I hadn't shared with her before and was willing to step into a more vulnerable space. And I see that with my wife. I see that with my kids. I see that with the people on our team. That when we step into that vulnerability and as a leader, whether that's leading family or business or community, that when we step into that vulnerability first, that it becomes more safe for others to do it, too. That safety really builds really strong relationships.

And like you were saying on the weekends, there's something about the way that those containers are set up that I never feel more safe than when I'm up there. And as a leader, what an incredible gift to bring that back to the people in your life and to create stronger relationships. 

Yeah.

And again, I'm sitting here and I'm getting chills from my own experience with that. And if someone hasn't been to a weekend, they hear that, it's like, yeah, well, obviously I saw Brene Brown on Ted Talk or whatever, but I feel the profoundness of that and I guess understand and experience the profoundness of that as well.

So, yeah, you have an initial coming out initially, feeling like you're more open. You can feel your emotions speak, things you haven't said before with vulnerability to your wife, and then moving into the groups where I heard you say before there was doing those groups, that was a really important part. So did that help expand things? Did that help keep that alive in you? What were those groups doing that kind of kept what was in the weekend going for you?

I think the safety of the container in that group felt very similar to the safety of the container on the weekend. And having a place in life to share what's going on in your life, good and bad and ugly, and know that it's a safe place to share that, to have conversation about it. I find that when it's shared with a group, challenges have less power. Once you've spoke them out loud, kind of the power of that situation changes a bit. Interesting.

I find that sharing with other men allows me to listen to their perspectives on my situation and be able to shape the way that I'm thinking about it. And I think I can speak for me. I have plenty of blind spots in those groups with a group of men that are willing to step into those conversations that it's safe to say, hey, this is what I'm seeing in this situation. That's different than you're seeing it? Which are you willing to consider a different way to look at it and being in that spot to share in a vulnerable way and being open to input from others to help consider a different point of view, I found really profound. It's helped in my self awareness. It's helped in me being able to step back and participate in those conversations for other men as well and feel like, hey, it's safe to step into these conversations. And while what you hear isn't always what you want to hear, most of the time there are things that you need to hear. Yeah.

How can God find out how to get the things I need to hear inside me? I had a similar experience. The groups were a great way to do that. I'm curious if you could speak to before your weekend experience. And the men in these groups have all been through a weekend. That's a requirement to get into these groups. Had you been in groups before? And the difference, if any, of the groups of men you've been before and after? I heard you use the word safety, but yeah. Could you speak more to kind of the before and after the weekend and being in groups? And how that's different for you? I don't remember exactly. When I started in my first men's group. My faith journey kind of took a hard stop at some point and felt it was probably in the fall of 17. So not maybe seven, eight months prior to my weekend, found a church to attend. And really, through a unique way through our kids. Our kids wanted to go to youth group.